It was a personal choice born out of personal desires and
Post by Phi Dung Modreams. Touby's decision was not a technical report nor
assessment on the future in Laos. It was simply his personal
choice based upon personal beliefs and dreams, therefore it
could neither be incompetent nor negligent.
*** "Personal choices," are, sometimes, you are intelligent
enough to know, not so "personal",,, Sometimes they are
DICTATED by circumstances and history and larger forces
than one can control,,, IGNORANCE of those force --- THAT'S
our "disagreement" here, nothing else, not even symantics,
though the latter seemed, superficially, to be what got this
"disagreemtn" started initially,,,,,
*** Point is: Touby's was done mostly, if not entirely,
out of ignorance. Patriotism and all that's good, so
long as you don't die by your competitors, cold-bloodedly.
Living for another day may give us a chance to reflect, to
rethink, on our thoughts, our actions, our situations.
*** Dying due to ignorance, naive gungho, & other such,
dressed up as "patriotism," is no less, or no more,
"herioc" than extricating oneself OUT OF A SITUATION one
has little or no information about, to live another day,
so as to afford oneself to think and think about one's
thinking,,,
Post by Phi Dung MoTo re-use your same analogy. Touby wasn't defining how to
guard the chicken coop, he was simply pondering should the
chicken coop be guarded and should he be there to make a
proper determination on the issue? At the time he was not
yet responsible for the proper act of guarding of the
chicken coop. Therefore again I would argue that incompetence
and negligence are completely misused terms in this case.
*** Fair enough, an assessment (on his behalf), I guess. I do,
though, wonder: DID HE EVER, at any time, out there, in the
dark, with the chicken, WONDER "Shit, there's too many hungry
coyotes, foxes, weasels, wild dogs, and other voricious
carninores here,,,, there's no freakin' way I can safely guard
these poor chickens... I gotta get help.... or perhaps these
chickens are doomed!"
*** One has to wonder --- no? --- IF Touby and other former,
high ranking officials from the old regime THOUGHT such
thoughts, as they were being kicked around, humiliated, starved,
and, for some, tortured and killed in those dark, isolated
places/camps???? (Again, I can be VERY FAIR: if the old
regime HAD WON, it would have treated most of the Pathet Lao,
now LPRP, folks NO LESS severely.
Post by Phi Dung MoAs for your wider comments about exacting some toll from the
losers, is this absolute? Has it occurred in every case? You
seem to indicate it as an absolute. There are few absolutes in
this world, seems rather silly for you to claim some absolute
on the outcome after wars when you know the outcome it is not
so absolute and other outcomes are not without precedence.
*** To the contrary, YOU think I thought it had to do with
ABSOLUTES. I am very "passionate" in my wanting to better
grasp human activities, human beliefs, human superstitions,
human follies (including my own), but I have NO PERSONAL
interest in any thing. I have not "invested" in humanity,
in passing on my genes or any properties or right or ideas,
so my observations are purely neutral ---- or as neutral as
you will ever get,,,
*** As some one who knows rudimentary mathematics, in addition
to enough major junctures in world history, my though operates
from AN AVERAGE view: Given any situation, an average view,
an average summary, an average sense of precaution --- that's
what it takes, that's what we should do. To be overly
optimistic and say, in yearning for things you want but may not
be "as is," and say "Oh, if you have a good, pure heart, every
thing is going to be okay," is an appeal to ignorance and
uncritical thought.
*** Good chatting with you. It's good to know (may I assume
you or your parents were also from Laos?, or at least SE Asia?),
that I've come across someone reasonably learned, reasonably
tolerant, reasonably caring, reasonably consciencious --- as
you?
*** HIstory may just proved me right, irony of all ironies:
that We, too, can think and think soundly --- Asians, that is.
That given, that is, if we are able to, whether through
chance or self-created environemnt, create a more nurturing
and tolerant society, THAT we are just as capable as Whites
and Europeans, in understanding fundamentals, without always
appealing to ignorance or "this is a local issue" fallacy,
in dealing with ourlselves, our ignorances, and ineptitude,
as these CORRECT LEADERS and LEACHERSIPS, as epitomized by
Laos and China's and Vietnam's and North Korea's omnipotent,
omniscient leaders:
*** "Just do as we good and wise and knowing leaders say;
don't question us; don't question our correct ideas and
thinking; just think like we do, using our same prisms, but
think purer, better, and more patriotically, & everything
is going to be fine,,," Those are WISHES, not reality. If
a people, if Asians --- the Laotians, Chinese, Veitnamese,
et al. --- wanted to be in the forefront of human thought
and endeavors, to find out and to better understand the
various "laws" governing the various bodies, situations,
and events, from economics, to chemistry, to governance, to
education, to jurisprudence,,,,
*** THEY TOO must take charge, and stop letting a few telling
them --- be those few white men or Asian old farts who wave
a gun at you and say they have mastered all kinds of rights
and blue-prints and all you have to do is just do as they say,
not make waves, and nodd and be cooperative and don't break
the laws, good laws, they have made for you and all good
citizens,,,, Asians NEED to stop such idiotic tendencies,,,
It is very possible: Look at "us",,, though we are Asians by
skin color and looks,,, our respective countries here in the
WEST have enabled us to think, much more broadly (and, yes,
ver stupidly, too!); we make more mistakes, curse more, fuck
more, make more money, have more leisure time, work more
efficiently and better, resulting in MORE productivity,,, That
is, "we" and the Japanese, the Twainese, the South Koreans,
et al. ---- those who have acquiscedd to broader "laws" of
"conducts", that is,,, Those who don't, from the Laotians to
the Chinese to the North Koreans ---- they will still work
as hard, but will NEVER earn, on avearage, as much as we do;
make as much impact in the world, good or bad, contribute as
much, enjoy as much, play as much, learn as much, even if they
say they do, or that they don't want to be like us or do the
things we do; we know it's mostly lies: they do!
*** English the language, Coke, Pepsi, Microsoft, Intel, Apple,
IBM, UPS, Hollywood, to Nobel laureates in physics, chemistry,
medicine, mathematics,,,, THEY DO WANT to be like us, NOT
because we are any better inherently ---- BUT simply because,
given the same chances/opportunity, our SOCIETAL ENVIRONMENTS,
in pluralism, afford and enable us to do more, better, quicker,
more efficiently, with more creativity and innovation!
Her Lao
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